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To be clear, new professor Dr. Terry Poucette, PhD, didn't take her new job because she thought it would be easy. “Reconciliation is easy to say, but it's not easy to do," she observes, wryly. “Neither is decolonization.”

That might be true but, less than a year into the job, the new director of (Grandmothers' Lodge) is already having an impact. Poucette who has a diploma in social work, a bachelor’s degree in First Nations Studies, and a master’s and PhD in public administration, came to the Faculty of Social Work from the City of Calgary where she led the City’s Indigenous Relations Office from its inception in January 2020. Encouraged by Dean Ellen Perrault to join the Faculty of Social Work, Poucette will play a key role in leading the faculty's Indigenous strategy and a new Social Work Graduate Certificate,

“I think that, once the faculty gets this work done, it’s really going to move it along as an academic leader in decolonization and reconciliation.”

In this wide-ranging interview with Faculty of Social Work's Don McSwiney, Poucette discusses the importance of Indigenous ways of knowing for future social workers, reconciliation and how change may come to the profession.

Why is it important for the Faculty of Social Work to have an Indigenous strategy? 

First of all, I think that everyone has a responsibility — whether they agree or not — to engage with Truth and Reconciliation. Given that Canada was built on Indigenous lands, and its citizens benefited from the treaties, everyone has a responsibility to engage and implement the Calls to Action. So that's one thing. 

The second thing is that the Faculty of Social Work, in its 2022-2027 strategic plan,��,��has some Indigenous goals, and one of them is to decolonize its curriculum. So, I think that those two reasons are important.  

And thirdly, the reason that the Faculty of Social Work needs to have an Indigenous strategy is because of the legacy of colonization and Indian residential schools that have created a myriad of social issues for Indigenous peoples across the country. 

Social Work graduates, whether they intend to or not, at some point in their careers, and their social work practice, are going to be engaging with Indigenous people, either as clients or in some other fashion. Because of this reality, I think it's important for the Faculty of Social Work to prepare its graduates. To know what Canada's colonial history is with Indigenous peoples. To learn about Indigenous protocols and cultures so that they can be better prepared to understand and effectively work with Indigenous peoples.

Part of your work also focuses on supporting the creation of new undergraduate and graduate courses focused on Indigenous ways of knowing and being. Why is it important for future social workers to have this knowledge?

If Social Work graduates use colonial social work practices (with Indigenous peoples), it's likely not going to work because they are foreign. Social Work graduates need to know who Indigenous peoples are, build respectful relationships, become culturally competent and learn how to work effectively with Indigenous people, so that they can support the decolonization process and support their Indigenous clients with their healing and recovery from the effects of colonization. That might be done in different ways. 

For example, in the new Bachelor of Social Work course that the Kiipitakyoyis team helped to design, we're going to be teaching students about various Indigenous healing practices so that they're aware of those practices when they graduate and go into their own practice. If they have Indigenous clients who want Indigenous healing supports, they can better support them in accessing those cultural resources.

What impact do you think this type of education might have on the profession of social work? 

Well, it will make their education more fulsome and holistic. And I think it's going to make their education more reflective of the demographics of Canada, because it's a diverse, multicultural country. I think graduates need to learn to work with different cultures — it's not just about colonial ways and settler culture.

The country is multicultural and I think Social Work graduates need to have cultural competencies and be able to work with different groups effectively. Since 2015, and the issuing of the , Canada has been paying more attention to the need for Truth and Reconciliation, and that's opened the door, especially in academia, because, when you read the 94 Calls to Action, there are calls to action for post-secondary education. 

I think that universities realize that the colonial way is not the only way. You know, there are other ways of knowing, being and doing that are just as legitimate as colonial ways of knowing, being and doing.

You’re leading Kiipitakyoyis (Grandmothers’ Lodge), which is the Indigenous Lodge within the Faculty of Social Work. As the new director, what do you believe the role of the lodge should be? 

The role of the lodge is to support the Faculty of Social Work with decolonization and Truth and Reconciliation. That could mean a whole number of things. It could apply to curriculum; it could apply to educating faculty members; it could apply to bringing in ceremonies to the academic space; it could apply to recruiting and retaining Indigenous students. It could mean a number of things. 

From my perspective, the Faculty of Social Work needs to define what it means by decolonization because we have decolonization written into our strategic plan, right? What do you mean by decolonization?

An important foundational step in the development of an Indigenous strategy needs to be getting the faculty to define what it means by decolonization. 

The Grandmothers’ Lodge, named Kiipitakyoyis by a Blackfoot Elder, has a guiding role. In my career, my experience has been that when settler institutions — whether they're government institutions, academic institutions or in industry — want to pursue truth and reconciliation, what often ends up happening is that they get Indigenous people to advance truth and reconciliation for them, right?  

I think we need to be careful about that, because it's not really reconciliation if Indigenous people are doing it for you. The faculty needs to do reconciliation itself, and the Lodge is there to guide and support that process — not to do it.

“That’s what I kept saying when I was working at the City of Calgary and that’s what I’m going to keep saying here. At the City of Calgary, I would always say to staff and leadership, ‘It’s not reconciliation if Indigenous people are doing it for you. You have to take responsibility, you know?”

So that colonialism isn’t continued, and harm inadvertently done, Indigenous peoples definitely need to be at the table to advise and guide. But it is government, academia and industry, as well as Canadian citizens, who need to learn the truth about their country’s colonial history and do the reconciling.    

By definition, Indigenous people have nothing to reconcile!

Exactly. We're not the ones that damaged the relationship, right? We kept our end of the historical treaties. And so, yeah, that's a good point. That’s why I always say that, "It's not us who need to learn the truth and to reconcile, it's you!"

Related to that, I’ve very much enjoyed your input in discussions and forums, when you’ve pointed out on numerous occasions that Indigenous Canadians are the first citizens of this country, so again, by definition, they’re not an equity-seeking group, or a “marginalized population.” 

Yes, that's right. We're not “ethnic” either. It really irritates me when Indigenous peoples get put into the “ethnic” category. This strange thing has happened in Canada, where all the settlers now are Indigenous to the land and everybody else — including the Indigenous peoples — are “ethnic.”

So yes, this weird thing has happened in Canada, and probably the United States where the settlers have become the original inhabitants and owners of the land and everyone else, including Indigenous peoples, are from somewhere else. 

I always noticed the way they label people in the United States: Native-Americans, Asian-Americans, African-Americans. But white people, well, they're just Americans. They're not European-Americans. They're just Americans. Clearly, the settler Americans have become indigenous to the country and everybody else is in the “other” category, including Indigenous peoples, the original inhabitants and owners of the land. Hence the label, Native-Americans. But I think that's the process of colonization; that's what happens.

As you mentioned, you recently came from the City of Calgary. What convinced you to come to the ��ݮ����Ƶ����'s Faculty of Social Work?

Well, I don't know how Ellen (Perrault, PhD, Dean of Social Work) found out about me. She's been in contact with me for about a year, encouraging me to apply to the faculty. So that's how that happened. I think it's important for members of the Nations that signed Treaty 7 to be part of local post-secondary institutions. I think it’s really important that there's a voice from the original peoples of the lands where the ��ݮ����Ƶ���� is built on — the Stoney, the Blackfoot, the Tsuut’ina, as well as the Métis where the Calgary area is homeland. 

You’ve been here less than a year, but how have you found it so far? 

I find it pretty good. I've been treated well by the faculty members. Of course, there are challenges. Reconciliation is easy to say, but it's not easy to do. Neither is decolonization. There are always going to be bumps on the road, differences of opinion, who should do what? That's all-normal stuff, part of the process. Nobody said that reconciliation was going to be easy. It's not. It can get quite bumpy and scary at times for Canadians because decolonization and reconciliation will require changes to colonial mentalities, systems, processes and products. Change is not easy and often marked by fear and uncertainty. In the long run, however, decolonization and reconciliation will make everyone in this country better off.   

I've often thought that, that bringing more Indigenous students into the profession of social work would be the shortest route to changing the profession from the inside. What are your thoughts on that? 

I think it's a systems question that you're asking. It is systems change that needs to happen, and that's where I find that reconciliation often gets hung up. Because, for genuine reconciliation to happen, there need needs to be systemic changes.

“Canadians need to examine their colonial systems, and see where there’s bias, discrimination and exclusion, and then change those systems. But that’s where reconciliation often gets stuck because it’s difficult to change the colonial mentalities that sustain those colonial systems.”

Sometimes there's a lack of genuine desire to change those colonial systems because it serves and benefits a certain group of people. It benefits a certain group of people at the exclusion of others. Sometimes there's a resistance to let that power go or to share it with others. So, it's a systems question you're asking. 

I think that Indigenous people can influence systems change, but who needs to �����systems change? It's the institutions that need to do it, just like reconciliation, right? I think that with reconciliation there's a lot happening, but it can only go so far if the colonial mentalities and systems are intact.

I’m wondering, given your experience and perspective, if you see an evolution happening? Is there a light at the end of the tunnel that has historically seen social work as an active accomplice in colonialization? 

I think the change is slow. As you were talking, I was thinking about Senator Murray Sinclair, who was one of the commissioners of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. He was saying a couple of years ago that, since the release of the 2015 TRC report, not much has advanced with the Calls to Action; there's been very little movement. And he said part of the problem is white supremacy and colonial mentalities which are impeding genuine reconciliation from happening. 

For reconciliation to really proceed, people need to examine their colonial mentalities and sense of superiority over Indigenous people. You know, that's always been that relationship in this country between Canada, its citizens and Indigenous peoples. But that said, a lot of movement has been made. I believe it's because of Indigenous people that this movement has happened. There's been Indigenous resistance since the beginning of settlement and colonization and that resistance and advocacy by Indigenous peoples has led to some significant changes. 

Indigenous Nations and peoples have been suing the government, taking them to court, you know, over many things, including Indian Residential Schools, broken treaty promises — and the countless other injustices done to Indigenous peoples through colonization. 

It’s because of Indigenous resistance that change has happened in this country. We now have Section 35 In the Canadian Constitution, which protects the rights of Indigenous peoples. We've got the Indian residential school settlement, modern-day treaties, land settlements, favourable Supreme Court rulings and other victories that Indigenous peoples have fought for decades.  

We're now in an era of anti-racism, Truth and Reconciliation and decolonization. These things weren't even talked about 20 years ago. I believe it's because of Indigenous people and their resistance that some movement has happened. Their resilience has forced Canada to look at itself and to begin the change process, at least by appearances. Because Canada wasn't going to do it by itself. Everything was fine. Canada and its institutions and citizens were benefiting from the abundant resources and vast lands because of treaties, right? Everything was fine for them and there was no need for change. Because, let’s face it, Canada and its citizens, institutions and industries got the better end of the deal in deceitful historical treaties and allowed the country to become one of the wealthiest in the world. 

I really love your perspective that things are changing only because Indigenous peoples have been fighting tooth and nail to make it happen.

Canada wasn't going to do it by itself and had to be pushed by Indigenous peoples. Why would they change anything when they're benefiting from everything as a result of treaties? The people that have benefited from the historical treaties most have been the settlers. They got everything; we got nothing, no land except for small reserves, no resources, no rights, no say. 

What do you have on your to-do list in the faculty? 

I'm excited about the work that's in front of me, like the development of the Faculty of Social Work Indigenous strategy and the development of the graduate certificate in Indigenous leadership. I think that it's exciting work. I'm glad to be involved in it. It's not going to be easy work by any means, but it is worthwhile work. Once we get those things done, it's really going to move the Faculty of Social Work farther along in the path of decolonization and reconciliation. It's great that we have a dean who wants to do that and is an ally to Indigenous peoples. 

I think it's also going to advance the Faculty of Social Work as an academic leader in decolonization, Indigenization and reconciliation. How many of the faculties of social work across this country have Indigenous lodges, strategies and curriculum? My guess is a handful. It's probably status quo for the most part. I think that once the faculty gets this work done, it's really going to move it along as an academic leader in decolonization and reconciliation.